Washblog || Astonishing conversation with pro-Hillary elitist!

Astonishing conversation with pro-Hillary elitist!

By dinazina
Tue Feb 19, 2008 at 11:39:34 AM PST
Section: Diary Topic: Presidential Caucus and Primary

I just had an amicable long-distance phone chat with my aunt in Pennsylvania that left my head spinning! She's a big fan of Hillary and I'm an Edwards supporter in Seattle, now switched to Obama.

Background: My aunt is a longtime Democratic party activist in her 70s. She was on the staff of several Presidential campaigns. She's attended National Conventions, being a delegate in one.

She made several insistent points that I must share. I found myself dumbfounded by her point of view - am I naive?

Continued below:

Since I became politically active in 2003 due to the Dean campaign, Judy seems to respect my opinons, although she detested Dean and we often disagree. She knows that I was on the state committee for the Edwards campaign, and approved of that.

Here are the things I heard when speaking with Judy for about an hour:

NUMBER ONE:
It's okay to support a pre-emptive, unilateral miltary invasion and occupation to further ones political ambitions.

Judy was surprised that a woman of my age (50s) would NOT be for Hillary.

Well, I have a number of good reasons for not supporting Hillary. But I wanted to avoid being confrontational, so I named only the biggest one.

I am an antiwar activist since the huge Feb. 03 demonstration. That's the reason I first became politically active. I've participated in countless demonstrations, I'm a member of a local Peace & Justice group, I've lobbied my senators, made antiwar graphics, attended seminars, cheered Rep. Jim McDermott, met with Iraq Veterans Against the War, etc.

I told Judy that because of Hillary's war support, she was unacceptable as a candidate to me. I said her original AUMF vote, although bad judgement, was not the deal-breaker, because many in congress voted for that, including Edwards. But years after the invasion, long after the falsified intelligence and military disaster was clear, Hillary contined to support and enable a Republican war of choice and pre-emptive war policy.

Judy said matter-of-factly: "But she had to do that. Don't you see, her biggest hurdle to becoming president was the perception that a woman couldn't be Commander-in-Chief. This made her credible as a candidate."

I thought of the destruction of a nation, the volume of sheer human misery, the war profiteering, the mountain of coffins, the widows and orphans, the amputated limbs and brain damage, PTSD, the suicide rate.

All I could say was: "I find that an unaccptable reason to support a war."

I have often said that I consider this to be Hillary's motivation for years of war support, but her supporters always denied it. They say she really believed the bad intelligence, or she knew we needed to take down Saddam and spread Democracy, whatever. But I never heard a supporter make the cool assertion that it made good sense politically, and that justifies it.

NUMBER TWO:
Voters don't Matter

Judy's sense of entitlement on behalf of Hilary was clear. Hillary has planned and worked for years to get to where she is, struggling mightily against people who hate strong, smart women, and now hordes of superficial Obama "Rock Star" voters might ruin it for her.

I said that Obama was not my first choice, but I admired his 50-state strategy, the way he made every voter and every state feel included and important. People DO respond to that.

I described the tripled turnout at the Washington Democratic caucuses, how people were eager to participate, even asking me for party membership forms and donation envelopes. My district, about a quarter of Seattle, more than doubled our membership that day, and raked in nearly 30 thousand dollars, mostly due to Obama supporters (70% of the total).

I said that I hear Hillary and her staffers disrespecting and dismissing whole states, whole demographics, whole chunks of the electorate. That pisses people off.

"I hate caucuses!" said Judy--as if to demonstrate my point. "They aren't real elections."

I mentioned that Obama had won a whole varietyof states, both caucus and primary states by large margins: Maine, Alaska, Idaho, Kansas, Washington, which could not be ascribed to a large ethnic population.

"But not the big ones, " Judy said.

What could I say to that? Is it true Hillary had a Big State strategy? New York, California, Texas, Ohio, Florida are the only states that matter? That voters in small states, red states and ethnic states (Hawaii, for instance) are simply insignificant?

NUMBER THREE:
Obama is "the black guy" and unelectable.
Judy refers to identity politics often: voters and candidates divided by race, gender, ethnicity, age, income, etc. This election is the Younger Black Guy versus the Smart, Strong Older Woman, period.

A Black guy, she said, simply isn't electable, because so many white voters won't vote for a Black guy, even if he's not Black Black.

I said: "I'm surprised to hear you say that, with your civil rights background." She said, "I wish I didn't have to say that, but it's true."

Apparently she thinks these same bigoted people WILL vote for a smart, strong older woman, even though previously she had referred to the widespread prejudice against smart, strong woman candidates.

I said we need the votes of the millions calling themselves Independent voters in the General, and Obama polls better with these voters than Hillary. She said no, it's just the opposite.

She said John McCain will DESTROY Obama in the general, whereas Hillary will DEMOLISH John MCCain, since she's already proved she's as tough and experienced.

Ummm-hmm.

NUMBER FOUR:
Superdelegates can and should overturn the popular vote.

Judy said that Superdelgates were created to override the poplar vote, in case the voters stupidly chose an unelectable candidate. She once was one, so she knows.

I said, "you believe the Superdelegates can vote against the popular vote intheir own districts?" She said they not only COULD, but had an obligation to do so, should the candidate with the most pledged delegates be deemed unelctable.

Is there anyone reading this who doesn't think this scenario would tear the party apart, that it would end up with riots (that I might well join in)outside of the Democratic National Convention, like 1968?

I didn't mention my reaction, because by now I'd realized my aunt's an elitist through and through, that she travels in a bubble inside the DLC, that she simply doesn't see things like most of us do.

I was feeling like an anthropologist studying an foreign culture. I don't often run into representatives of that culture, in my circles.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another topic we touched on:
"Michelle Obama is disgusting!"

Why? "She said she might not vote for Hillary, if she were the nominee." I said no; I believe she said she might not WORK for Hillary. "No! She said she would not VOTE for her!"

I changed the subject, because I didn't have time to look up the quote on the Internet, but I think I'm right. Judy no doubt would not accept the Internet account as accurate; she'd believe Rendell or whoecver gave her the quote.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

She reminded me my own Senators Murray and Cantwell had endorsed Hillary. I said of course, they're all women Senators, but my woman Governor endorsed Obama.

At that she sniffed, because a smart, strong woman of that age not endorsing Hillary is inexplicable to her.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"And who cares what Ted Kennedy thinks, he killed a girl! He tried to kill Carter in 1980!"

I assured her I was not a fan of Kennedy, to calm her down.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I finally said: "Well, we're both very opinionated," and she laughed. Actually, I had not shared with her many other opinions (anti-dynasty, for instance) that would've had us butting heads like mountain sheep in rutting season, cause I want to stay on good terms.

We spoke of other matters, family matters, and she ended the conversation saying, "Too bad you don't live nearby, we could get together and chat about politics often."

She enjoyed the conversation!! Go figure...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My summary is this:
I've often thought the Clintons had no use for the grassroots activists: "Give us your votes, then get lost - we'll take care of everything." This is in such philosophical opposition to Obama's inclusive approach that, like my aunt, they honestly can't see why people would be drawn to Obama, except he's a "rock star".

If Hillary Clinton shares my aunt's elitism and tone-deafness to the mood of this year's voters, no wonder she's unprepared, frustrated, blaming lots of her own problems on sexism, and running a big state campaign that contines to piss people off.

I'm trying to be fair. How would you interpret this?

< On The Cost of War, Or, Do You Know What We Could Have Bought? | Obama and Clinton agree-- >

Astonishing conversation with pro-Hillary elitist! | 16 comments (16 topical)

Maybe I shouldn't have posted on Dkos

It made the Rec list and has hundreds of comments. Several people accused me of inventing this conversation to "smear" Hillary.

Now I'm afreaid somehow it would get back to my aunt, thru a friend. That might not sit well with her at all.

by dinazina on Tue Feb 19, 2008 at 02:41:12 PM PST

* 1 none 0 *

I was just going to congratulate you. . . by robespierrette, 02/19/2008 06:27:55 PM PST (none / 0)
Is she does hear and objects,,, by gibney, 02/19/2008 09:16:08 PM PST (none / 0)
to hell with those a'holes by rmdSeaBos, 02/20/2008 08:04:35 AM PST (none / 0)

It seemed like by dinazina, 02/20/2008 10:23:25 AM PST (none / 0)

indeed, mixing metaphors further... by m3047, 02/21/2008 11:04:34 AM PST (none / 0)

I just wanted to say that this post... by Particle Man, 02/26/2008 11:51:15 AM PST (none / 0)

Thanks P-Man. n/t by dinazina, 02/26/2008 04:31:18 PM PST (none / 0)

Out of step, out of compassion, out of hope

Dina, your aunt's attitude seems quite in line with the rhetoric and tactics of the Clinton campaign -- and it's what we could expect from that presidency.

Her attacks on Obama are tantamount to mocking the hopes of the American people for unity and for moving forward.

Her "realist" approach which looks at politics as a technical game - so that we enter an abomination of a war -- and stay there -- because those who put their political fingers in the wind figured they had no power to stop it -- is delusional. Things happen politically because of emotion and belief and a mobilized public. Obama's approach here is not only brilliant -- but possibly may get us to a new place politically. I'm actually feeling some hope now myself, for the first time in 8 years.

I was typing in data on delegates elected at the recent caucuses and saw that one man had written in the column: "presidential preference": "Go Obama!" In the column that prompted people to indicate if they were gay/lesbian, etc. he wrote: "Christian". I felt happy to see that -- the punitive attitude that many progressives have had toward social conservatives have not only diminished the base of the party, but cut off the only kind of communication, in my opinion, that can lead to minds being changed.

by noemie maxwell on Wed Feb 20, 2008 at 08:43:01 AM PST

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My 70 yr old mother astonished me too!

She supports Hillary but for seemingly no other reason than that Hillary is a woman. This Despite the Fact that my mother is well aware of how strongly the war in Iraq has impacted our family and that Hillary voted for that very war.

Backstory; I had sent out several email reminders to several of my Washington family about caucusing because it is such a 'new' process for all of us. The day after caucus, I sent a family email asking how it went at their various caucuses - two daughters in Spokane County, mother in Pierce County, sister in Grays Harbor County and us out here in Pacific County.

Well my 70 yr old mother didn't go to her caucus. Okay, well she's older, so fine. But she replied in her email response (that includes all of the Washington family) with her support for Hillary, which startled me since a) she didn't caucus, b) she is grandmother to my daughter whose husband is deployed in Iraq for second time now and mother to my sister whose son served in Bosnia, and then Iraq and is now struggling with PTSD kinds of issues,and got himself out of the military after ten years of what he thought was to be his career. My mother knows well of my own activism activities these past 5 yrs to end the war and get the troops home.

I sent an email reply to remind her that she could have registered her support for Hillary at her caucus, and the family email wasn't about who to support, rather to go to caucus and make their voices heard. But since she did see fit to register support for Hillary and her reasons why, then I would remind that Hillary did, in fact, vote for the war in Iraq and has not much changed her mind or opinion on her vote. And that I would register my support for Obama, and that I was now a precinct delegate for Obama, and would be attending county convention as an Obama delegate.

It wasn't so much that she had expressed a preference, but that with what seemed to me like great insensitivity, had expressed a preference seemingly without regard to honoring the fact of the loved ones in our family, returning from and deployed again to Iraq. And this even though she hadn't bothered to go to her caucus.

Weeks later in a phone call exchange with me she inquired what it meant for me to be a delegate. I gave a rough explanation of precinct, to county, to state. How it was different than in 2004 elections, and she asked me why I was supporting Obama and not Hillary. I explained that I valued the fact of Hillary Clinton being a woman and the opportunity of the first woman for President, but where we are right now in terms of history in this country and globally, with the ongoing war in Iraq - Middle East, the condition of the infrastructure, economy, medical, employment in this country, climate warming, I had to forego the gender aspect in favor of who was more likely to bring about strong change. And more importantly who was likely to be able to bring people together to act in common good and it seems unlikely Hillary can do that. Not even necessarily because she's not capable, but because the partisan feelings against her (not saying it is right, just that it is what it is) are so strong, common unity towards getting to work and getting real work done on real issues is too unlikely for us, as a country, to take that risk right now.

And again I reminded her that Hillary voted for the war and hasn't shifted much from that position. Mom said that Hillary said she'd begin to bring troops home. I said, yes, she said she'd begin to bring 'some' troops home. That doesn't specify how many or when and leaves those troops left behind vulnerable or exposed. That it sounded more like Hillary's talking point to win an election than an earnest desire to end what should not have begun in the first place.

Not unlike what your Aunt said, I acknowledged that while Hillary may have made a political decision that she had to vote with the 'boys' so as not to look weak on national defense and foreign policy; that says (to me) something about her character that is distasteful as a human being. The lives of 4, 000 U.S. troops killed in Iraq, the 10's of thousands of wounded U.S. troops - not just wounded, but so severely debilitated as to never resume a normal life again, and the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi families of fathers, mothers, and children killed in Iraq is not an equitable trade off for her to hold onto political aspirations of becoming the next President.

We decided to shift the conversation, but I could tell by her closing remark that all she could see was that Hillary was a woman and could become the first woman President. Sadly, I don't think where we are in this country at this time in history constitutes the reason to capitalize on the fact that Hillary is a woman as the bulk of the reason to vote for her for President.

So Dina, your experience with your aunt and your reaction resonates with me. My apologies for not seeing your diary sooner, and I'm pleased to hear it got a recommend and comments at DK. Did you provide a link to your DK diary? I'd like to read the comments. I appreciate you sharing your experience with us. Helps me feel more sane about my own reaction to my mother's preference.

On the Surge in Iraq "--we have set the bar so low it's buried in the sand at this point." - Barack Obama

by Lietta Ruger on Fri Feb 22, 2008 at 02:50:03 PM PST

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Thanks Lietta for this feedback. by dinazina, 02/22/2008 07:02:23 PM PST (none / 0)

Wow

I've been out of town and just picked up on your post. And looked at the kos stuff which I could hardly get through.

Family conversations are SO difficult. My family is of two parts: total fundi Catholic Dad and Christian youngest sister, and liberal Dem sis that loves Barak and could not understand how I could like a white person who speaks with a Southern accent (Edwards). I say we were raised correctly - Mom made us sit down in front of the TV to see the Civil Right movement in action. Anyway, I had to be there in person on my LALA land trip to find out her husband iked Edwards :-) ! My liberal sister and I vacillate between afraid of and not caring so have not asked the fundis who they like, but we suspect they voted for Huckabee.

I have been accosted by Hillary supporters, after any mild statement like ,'I don't support her' with 'WHY DOES EVERYONE HATE THE CLINTONS?'. How about I NEVER LIKED the Clintons? Never. Even when Bill was nominated. I held my nose and voted for him and that is all.

Did not like who Hillary brought to the 'table' in the end in secret to work on health care -- and I knew people in organizations AT that table who told me that she brought in the insurance companies and ditched people and work they had done willy nilly to try to make deals.

I watched the CNN debate from Austin and I must say there is not that much difference between the two, and I did kind of like Hillary. But, and here is the first part of why I like Barak Obama, he has an attitude of willingness to talk to Cuba. To be an activist for negotiating peace.

The second reason that I like Obama is something that should be scary to many and may end up badly. He's raising up a mob of internet paricipation and a flow of ideas. Is he a demogogue? Certainly he is a liberal, not a progressive. But, most Americans are not progressive. And, will he ask us to be smart or dumb us down, which is the character of demogoguery. I trust what he has raised up to be smarter.

Third, I think we are all SO abused for the last 27 years that Clinton expresses more of a victim mentality that I do understand and sympathize with, but do not want to engage in. I think Kucinich and Dean stood up to the abuse in 2004, and Kucinich and Edwards have done that in 2008.

Obama is really positing a whole new paradigm. I plan on thinking, researching and reflecting more about the realities of political and social abuse starting with Reagan, our continuing victimization (and the way that we all know that victims can respond in non logical ways), the generational activism that started with WTO and the anti war movement, and the positive Presidential campaigns response that started in 2004.

by ktkeller on Mon Feb 25, 2008 at 12:41:24 AM PST

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Thanks for this! by dinazina, 02/25/2008 07:05:52 AM PST (none / 0)

Japan bashing by m3047, 04/13/2008 06:47:10 PM PST (none / 0)

They may not call themselves progressive-- by eridani, 02/25/2008 02:52:44 PM PST (none / 0)

Astonishing covesation with Hillary elitist

I understand what you are talking about. My husband is from PA and his relatives are blind to Hillary's short comings too. His sister admires Hillary's mud slinging and want's her elected because she is a woman. Period!

Her husband thought Obama was a Muslim from India. "Why not vote for Hillary you get two for one.(Bill Clinton)he said"
I have wanted Obama from the start he will unite this country and win respect from the world. John Edwards would make a great attorney general!

by janie42 on Sat Apr 26, 2008 at 10:08:13 AM PST

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Astonishing conversation with pro-Hillary elitist! | 16 comments (16 topical)

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